Curse

davdaniel · Jan 25, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Already had people suggested to have it take 2 seconds to cast. I can see the reason in that. One second cast + 2*20/20 wand/focus, you have a good chance to make it 1/2 cast time.

One second is not ez interrupt; not for professions that's not specialized in interrupts. Also skills that have 1 or less cast time cannot be canceled, so you can't break your attack chain to interrupt others.

Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.

Arcane De Farad · Jan 25, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos Herald

Spoil Victor is quite a powerful skill now, but the nerf requested by the OP would make it useless, and there are way too many useless elites now.
The only place I've ever seen SV is in RA, I play an SF ele alot in RA (when I'm trying to get balthazar faction to unlock stuff), and never have I been killed by an SV necro. Furthermore, I've played SV before, and I never killed someone fast enough for it to warrant a nerf. I can kill faster with DISCORD.

Anyway, my point is that SV does not need a nerf, use hex removal more.

Yep, and it will be useless like Feast of Corruption now... .

Emik · Jan 25, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by davdaniel

Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.

Not even that... Just cast [skill]Guilt[/skill] on the SV spamming necro and he's out of theloop for some time.
All this boohoo, i'm getting killed by SV nonsense is too ridiculous for words.

Let me ask you one thing lightblade... what profession are we talking about here?

Arcane De Farad · Jan 25, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Diversion is really, really bad mesmer skill

. Almost killed us in HA today... My poor-old-word of healing was shuted down

. Dwaynas Kiss FTW !

Emik · Jan 25, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Where did you see Diversion?

It's [skill]Guilt[/skill] not [skill]Diversion[/skill]

Aeon_Xin · Jan 25, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Glad to see alot more people coming in here to post that SV is a pain but not overpowered, almost started to doubt myself. I've been wrong before, once, back in '57

Still laughing at the fact that no reasonable explanation of why it's overpowered has surfaced.

Kratos Angel · Jan 25, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Shame doesn't work on SV, guilty does.

Emik · Jan 25, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

You're right... I always seem to mix those two up.
Well you understood what i meant so

lightblade · Jan 25, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Not even that... Just cast [skill]Guilt[/skill] on the SV spamming necro and he's out of theloop for some time.
All this boohoo, i'm getting killed by SV nonsense is too ridiculous for words.

Let me ask you one thing lightblade... what profession are we talking about here?

Guilt have 2 second cast time, so it's more likely you'll be interrupted before you get to interrupt the Nec. Also, Guild have 30 seconds recharge, which still leaves time for SV to cast.

We're talking about a 4v4 situation that have one team w/ a SV nec and the other team doesn't. The teams may or may not have a monk with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davdaniel

Mystic regeneration (1/4 sec casting time) is can be interrupted too (I mean with ranger), just u need good timing. Its really possible, just u need some experience about casters timing.

That's caused by either continuous cast or continuious interrupt...it's like how Grasping Darkness in UW can interrupt 1/4 cast Protective Spirit.

Nightwind Of Dwayna · Jan 28, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

If it's as aweful as you say it is, every single non necro player would be in this forum right now backing you up. Apparently it's not, cause there's like 3-4 of you. Buck up and learn to counter, avoid, or deal with it.

I had to bump this thread as soon as I read this. I guess I didn't know it was here. You've asked for proof that it's overpowered? Here you go, all stats with 16's in relevant attributes:

Empathy: 10 Energy, 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 47 damage per attack, granted it's unconditional damage. Lasts 16 seconds.

Backfire: 15 Energy, 3 second cast, 20 second recharge. Does 147 damage per cast, granted it's unditional damage. Lasts 10 seconds.

SV: 10 Energy, 1 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 105 Damage per cast or attack, lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud.

Many of the pro-SV responses in this thread have suggested interrupting/avoiding/countering. The very best post I've read pointed out yet again, for the umpteenth time in these forums, that just because something can be countered doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

Let's assume, just for a second, that you're a monk, like I frequently am.

I do not go Mo/R or Mo/Me so I can interrupt. It's enough of a challenge to just manage my energy while avoiding the metagame melee train. My point here is, as I really am sure you're aware, there are other things going on other than just trying to deal with the SV necro. So, I'm kiting like crazy while attempting to avoid knockdowns, and I see SV pop on me. Everybody who's pointing out hex removal, pay attention - It is about to be covered by Parasitic Bond within one (1) second!! One cannot use Remove Hex, it takes two seconds to cast and seven to recharge. The observent necro already has PB (or Life Siphon, also part of the SV build) back covering the SV within one second after I remove it with RH. Other hex removal skills that will not work in this scenario include: "Elite" Withdraw Hexes (due to the recharge condition and ridonkulous energy cost), Convert Hexes (again, recharge), Deny Hexes (say it with me, recharge), "Elite" Empathic Removal (recharge), Holy Veil (recharge), and the list goes on.

In fact, there is one (maybe there are two) Monk hex-removal skills that can effectively counter SV: "Elite" Divert Hexes with a case to be made for Signet of Removal. The multiple-removal of DH makes it the only real answer albeit the 10 energy cost, while SoR works occasionally because the necro is usually trying to spam it around to at least two party members. How many monks carry these two skills? I am laughed at when I do, even if it keeps the party alive a little longer.

My final point, and I would challenge anyone who frequently plays Monk to dispute this: Damage output in general is increasing faster than monk abilities to mitigate damage. Add to this the fact that you're on your butt as often as you're on two feet thanks to RaO and Assassins as a whole, and you see a problem developing. My ultimate solution is not to nerf SV; I would prefer to see a few of the monk hex removals buffed to where they can actually compete. But I certainly would appreciate upping the recharge of SV to about 15 seconds. This is not unreasonable - it lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud. It would simply limit the ability of the necro to spam (and cover) it all around your party. It is also a split of the difference between Empathy and Backfire insofar as recharge is concerned.

Either way, I don't much mind. I am certainly up to a challenge. I Monk because I like the pressure. But I am experienced enough at this game (played since Prophecies release) to tell you for certain that this skill is far too powerful given all the other things one must deal with in the metagame. Especially if it's on three party members at once, and you're running anything other than a Divert Hexes monk.

/signed in support of Lightblade, although my arguement differs a bit from his.

The Hand Of Death · Jan 29, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

the stupid thing on this hex is when a monk try to protect or heal someone with less heath then him he take huge damage -_-

That would be the point of the hex... to give monks a hard time by damaging them when they heal.

Now there are several solutions to countering this hex and anyone with half a brain can notice these.

A. Hex removal as said before
B. If you are one of those echo mending wammos out there and keep getting damage by this hex and are like "OMG WHAT A NOOB!!! HOW DO I KEEP GETTING DMGED, I AM THE 1337s, HOW CAN THIS BE!!!', there is a simple solution, stop attacking. What a revalation that was, spoil victor is a conditional ELITE hex, it is meant to be strong, but since it is conditional then the player with the hex on them has the choice of activating the effect of the hex or not.
C. Hex breaker!!!
D. Use it yourself and then you shouldn't piss about it.

Coloneh · Jan 29, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Nightwind, you math about how it is unbalanced dosnt really hold up since you are comparing an elite to two non elites and not even counting that it has a conditional trigger. I think its better to compare to ss:16 in either attribute.

SS: For 21 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 37 shadow damage to that foe and all adjacent foes.

SV: For 33 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 105 Health.

Now, unless you have absolutly lost your brain, SS should be hitting AT LEAST 2 people so its about 74 damage at its lowest, and that triggers on every attck/skill

Spoil victor goes for 105 damage, but it can only hit one target, and only hits on attack/spell, and most importantly you need to be targeting someone with less health than you.

so basic stats are 74 damage minimum vs 105 damage maximum and unconditional damage vs conditional damage.

Its really not that unbalanced,maybe you could shave off a little damage, lowered to around 90.

jayce · Jan 29, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwind Of Dwayna

How many monks carry these two skills? I am laughed at when I do, even if it keeps the party alive a little longer.

the next time they laugh at you, then why dont you tell them to bring their own --- hex remover.

Emik · Jan 29, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Cover Hex? Ah wait: [skill]Expel Hexes[/skill] comes to mind.

Comparing SV with either Empathy or Backfire is out of the question.
SV is an elite.
In the test weekend the duration was shortened which in it's own wasn't that bad actually.
Still it's not overpowered.

NeHoMaR · Jan 29, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

A Warrior, Assassin, etc., hexed with Spoil Victor, the only he/she could do is wait 33 seconds doing nothing. Hex removal are NOT available all the time, monk(s) could be dead, or hex removal recharging or diverted. With SS or Empathy you could still attack and kill someone, even win a battle being the last alive, hexed with Spoil Victor you must /resign.

Aeon_Xin · Jan 29, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

If someone uses a "cover hex" after they Use SV, good for them, that has nothing to do with the power of any given skill, as well as random circumstances.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Divert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Convert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Purge_Signet
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Withdraw_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Holy_Veil
While not multiple removal, it creates a situation where an immediate cancelation can happen.

My main argument, is that it's complained about in pertaining to a Random arena and that's why it's invalidated.

There are several builds that will sometimes pwn in the same circumstance.

A 55 could potentially rule, with no teamates or all teamates dead.

RA, partially nullifys, or atleast can sometimes, nullify this metagame everyone keeps referring to.

By your arguments, any build that can soloPvE, neutralize a given class/build, or become invincible against a class/build is overpowered, and deserve a nerf.

Any Ranger that specializes in interrupts, could own any caster given the right circumstances, but no one in here is begging for them to be nerfed.

By nature of the random arena, people are going to get completely owned once in a while, and nerfing SV down isn't going to solve that. If SV is the only thing holding warriors back in RA, then hell, it's a good thing it's there.

Lightblade stated himself, he's going along the theory that the best defense is a good offense, and he's upset that it backfires? He really doesn't get what GW is built around, variety. Adaptation, countering, anyone who expects to win all the time even in a normal arena is a bit daft, not to mention a random arena.

If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP, or atleast not do RA, because pwnage can't be avoided all the time. If you want comfy/easy, don't do RA, that's not what it's there for.

lishi · Jan 29, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

well , im giving up.

if someone don't think is overpowered then they wont.

i will just wait next skill update where it will get nerfed.

Nightwind Of Dwayna · Jan 31, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Divert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Convert_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Purge_Signet
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Withdraw_Hexes
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Holy_Veil

As you might have guessed, I'm familiar with those skills, Aeon.

I even addressed my objections to 4 out of 6 of them in my original post.
If I ran all six of them, I might have a chance - but that's a pretty boring skillbar, eh?

We can agree to disagree about Holy Veil, I have always thought the skill was overrated. The "Double-click for hex removal" mechanism is cumbersome at best, and tough to use from a practical application standpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

While not multiple removal, it creates a situation where an immediate cancelation can happen

Point taken. But too much talk about HV akes us away from the topic, which is SV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

My main argument, is that it's complained about in pertaining to a Random arena and that's why it's invalidated.

It is equally overpowered in Team Arenas, Hero Battles, Alliance Battles, and would likely be so in HA if anyone broke away from FotM long enough to try it. And, with all respect, there are frequently more full districts of RA than HA. I'm not going to get into this debate, especially with you as I respect your posts, but we're paying customers, too. If I was able to find a guild that was actually age 20 (or higher)+, active, and fun I'd be in HA and GvGs along with them, but as it is, RA's is what I've got, and I enjoy them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

There are several builds that will sometimes pwn in the same circumstance.

A 55 could potentially rule, with no teamates or all teamates dead.

Did you just suggest running a 55 monk in RA? I'm just going to pretend that was never brought up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

RA, partially nullifys, or atleast can sometimes, nullify this metagame everyone keeps referring to.

By your arguments, any build that can soloPvE, neutralize a given class/build, or become invincible against a class/build is overpowered, and deserve a nerf.

Any Ranger that specializes in interrupts, could own any caster given the right circumstances, but no one in here is begging for them to be nerfed.

If a build can neutralize/be invincible against another build, it's perfectly fine. If it can neutralize/be invincible against an entire class regardless of build, yes, it needs a nerf. In my opinion. If you disagree, I'd love to hear why.

When a ranger owns me with interrupts, I take my hat off to him. This SV thing is proving a little tougher than that. Int ranger takes skill and timing. SV Necro takes the ability to wash, rinse, and repeat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

By nature of the random arena, people are going to get completely owned once in a while, and nerfing SV down isn't going to solve that. If SV is the only thing holding warriors back in RA, then hell, it's a good thing it's there.

...

If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP, or atleast not do RA, because pwnage can't be avoided all the time. If you want comfy/easy, don't do RA, that's not what it's there for.

OK, here you're starting to get away from me. All I did was suggest a recharge of 15 seconds (although I would settle for 12). I said I enjoy a challenge, and that I like the pressure. I can take getting owned once in a while - what non-moron can't? But I also can call a spade a spade. This skill is overpowered. It needs a longer recharge time. If you want to spam it all over the place, Arcane Echo it and spam away. And, although I'm no PhD of forum etiquette, isn't saying "If you can't take getting owned once in a while, maybe you shouldn't PvP" to me sort of like me saying "If you can't stand hearing other people's opinions occasionally, maybe you shouldn't post in forums" to you? Mind you, I'm not saying that, but that statement sort of surprised me, coming from you. The rest of your logic has been so well thought-out throughout the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

(Comparison to SS)

Thanks for making my arguement for me - SS is a 15 energy cast as opposed to 10 for SV, a 2 second cast as opposed to 1 for SV and a 10 recharge as opposed to 8 for SV, and has a 12 second shorter duration. Given that all requirements for casting SS are higher than for casting SV, why wouldn't SS do more damage than SV, as opposed to even slightly less?

Anyway, thanks everybody for the lively discussion on this topic; I think we will see some kind of change made to the skill with the skill refresh. I feel confident that I'm not the only one who sees at least some slight problems.

Nightwind
P.S. Aeon - I ain't mad at'cha - This is just where you and I differ, as Jules said in Pulp Fiction.

Akhilleus · Jan 31, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

i think you forgot one little thing in your comparison:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwind Of Dwayna

I had to bump this thread as soon as I read this. I guess I didn't know it was here. You've asked for proof that it's overpowered? Here you go, all stats with 16's in relevant attributes:

Quote:

Empathy: 10 Energy, 2 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 47 damage per attack, granted it's unconditional damage. Lasts 16 seconds.

NOT ELITE

Quote:

Backfire: 15 Energy, 3 second cast, 20 second recharge. Does 147 damage per cast, granted it's unditional damage. Lasts 10 seconds.

NOT ELITE

Quote:

SV: 10 Energy, 1 second cast, 10 second recharge. Does 105 Damage per cast or attack, lasts 33 seconds, for crying out loud.

ELITE

big surprize that SV (an elite skill) is better than 2 similar skills, that arent elite.
the mere fact that you use this as a comparison, is ludicrous.

and heres a thought.
if SV is such a problem for you, hexbreaker+holy veil should all but solve the problem.
healing/protection is a counter to damage, sv is a counter to healing/protection (and by far not the only one), so, get a counter to SV.
if your team is failing because of its lack of ability to counter a single hexmancer, then you have a FAR larger problem than a single "unbalanced" skill.

lightblade · Jan 31, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

^Hex Breaker have slower recharge than SV, reapplying SV is possible.
Holy Veil need upkeep cost, which is quite costly since you don't know when the hex will come.

SV..being Elite doesn't justify that it's not overpowered. Because if you compare this Elite to other elites, this is overpowered..